Where does bending start?: the chicken or the egg

[bumi]

yep, so did we find the answer then?

cause we don't know where the spirits got their bending skills :)
or maybe they jus exist, like God, who knows?

[zuko614]

i doubt that we will ever know

[Griffin]

But if you're going to talk about where the spirits come from you get another circle (this time with two impossibilities)

Can something exist forever?

In my opinion, no, something must have a beginning and an end, or at least a beginning, because always is unimaginably long. Just impossibly long.

=> From that follows that, once, there has to have been nothing

But something cannot come from nothing

=> there is still nothing (which is certainly not true).


It just doesn't make sense. But that's the same with the beginning of the "normal" world ("our" world).

[zuko614]

well, the spirits have probably existed forever. weird thought, but it is possible.

[Griffin]

well, the spirits have probably existed forever. weird thought, but it is possible.

Do you really think always? In my opinion, that is impossible, because always is like infinite. It doesn't really exist. Because it never ever stops it's undescribable, and I think even the spirits can't've lived forever.

[sukkah]

so this is a story made by ztad long ago which was based on hindu mythology, so this has some credence to it
i think it explains well that there was bending before the avatar and how the avatar was formed

again, this is not mine, this is ztad's



Long ago, the people were at war with the spirits. An evil demon, Mahishasura, had already taken over the spirit world. Now he was leading the invasion against the humans.

The four peoples: Water Tribes, Earth Kingdom, Fire Nation, and Air Nomads, met on the final battlefield, allied as they would never be allied again. While the armies assembled, their leaders held a last council.

?Mahishasura is destroying our people,? Fire Lord Shiva said. ?We must stop him here, on this battlefield.?

?We cannot stop him,? replied Earth King Brahma. ?No one can stop him.?

Air Master Vishnu folded his arms in his robes. ?It is said that no man or spirit may kill him.?

?Then there is no hope,? Water Chief Varuna declared.

The generals of the peoples? armies murmured their agreement. If the greatest leaders of the age could not defeat Mahishasura, nobody could.

?No!? cried Fire Lord Shiva. ?We must not despair!? He strode around the council, meeting the eyes of every man there. ?We are the world?s last hope. If we do not stop Mahishasura today, then we must stop him tomorrow. If we do not stop him tomorrow, we must stop him the next day. If we do not, Mahishasura will take our world, and we will no longer be free. We must fight for our right to live!?

The men cheered. They would win, or they would go down fighting.

A disturbance beyond the council grabbed their attention. Guards were ordering someone to turn back, but it shoved its way through the council until it was standing before the four great leaders.

It was a spirit, so evil that its very body was twisted. It spoke to the leaders, ?I have a message from my master, the all-powerful Mahishasura.?

?Very well,? said Earth King Brahma. ?Deliver your message and be done with it.?

The spirit messenger launched into a speech about how Mahishasura would defeat the people and destroy their world. He began to describe how his demon master would kill the people.

?Enough!? shouted Fire Lord Shiva. He punched the air, and flames erupted from his fist to engulf the messenger. In a few seconds, all that was left of it was a pile of ash.

?That was cruel,? Air Master Vishnu observed.

?These spirits are cruel,? growled Water Chief Varuna. ?And now there is one less of them to fight.?

?One less of them to destroy our people,? Earth King Brahma agreed.

The four great leaders glowered at the thought of their people?s destruction. They were so furious, the very air around them began to glow with a bright, white light. That light took the form of a young woman, gathering inside of her until all that remained of the light was her eyes, which shone brilliantly like two stars.

?I am Durga,? the woman said, surveying the council. ?I will help you defeat Mahishasura.?

Fire Lord Shiva, Earth King Brahma, Air Master Vishnu, and Water Chief Varuna exchanged wary looks.

?You are a woman,? Earth King Brahma said. ?So you cannot fight the battle.?

?You are a man,? Durga said. ?So you cannot kill the demon.?

The leaders exchanged looks again, but this time, they were smiling.

?What weapons do you have?? asked Water Chief Varuna.

Durga turned her powerful gaze on him. ?None.?

?If I may,? said Air Master Vishnu, stepping forward. ?I am the world?s greatest air bender. Air is the element of freedom. I will gladly give you my power if it means stopping Mahishasura and ensuring my people will be free.? He held up a hand, spun a small whirlwind of yellow light, and sent it over to the woman, who absorbed the whirlwind into her own palm.

Following the Nomad?s lead, Water Chief Varuna stepped forward. ?I am the world?s greatest water bender. Water is the element of change. I will gladly give you my power if it means stopping Mahishasura and ensuring that my people will be able to change the world for the better.? He held up a hand, drew up a wave of blue light, and pushed it toward the woman, who absorbed the wave into her own palm.

Then Earth King Brahma stepped forward. ?I am the world?s greatest earth bender. Earth is the element of substance. I will gladly give you my power if it means stopping Mahishasura and ensuring that my people will endure.? He held up a hand, formed a rock of green light, and rolled it over to the woman, who absorbed the rock into her own palm.

Finally, Fire Lord Shiva stepped forward. ?I am the world?s greatest fire bender. Fire is the element of power. I will gladly give you my power if it means stopping Mahishasura and ensuring that my people will have what they desire.? He held up a hand, lit a flame of red light, and sent it over to the woman, who absorbed the flame into her own palm.

Durga closed her eyes, and for a second she looked like any other young woman. But when they snapped back open, a terrible power seemed to emanate from her, and even the great leaders were intimidated.

?Thank you,? she told them in a booming voice. ?I will not keep your power forever. It is a loan, only. Now, I must defeat this demon before any more lives are lost.?

She swept from the council and onto the battlefield, almost seeming to float through the air. The people moved out of her way; then once she had passed, they followed behind her. The power she had received from their leaders spilled out over the landscape, rippling the surface and raising mountains.

Durga reached the top of a hill and saw the spirit army spread out on a large field below. At the head of it was the demon Mahishasura.

Eyes flashing with a great light, Durga slammed a foot into the ground.

When nothing happened, the demons began to laugh to themselves. This woman was not as intimidating as she appeared.
Durga?s eyes flashed again, and the wind picked up. It whirled around her, faster and faster, until Durga was lifted off of the ground, high above the battlefield.

Mahishasura knew that something was wrong. ?Kill her!? he roared. His army surged forward.

Durga?s eyes flashed again, and she shoved her hands in a sudden, downward motion, palms parallel to the ground. The earth so many feet below her fell away, opening a chasm in the ground. The first wave of spirits fell into the abyss. Then the hole closed up, as if it had never existed.

Flying spirits rushed toward her out of the sky. With another flash and a wave of her hand, a large whirlwind appeared, flinging the flying spirits over the mountains.

Another flash, and fire rained down on the western flank of the spirit army.

Another flash, and a mountain collapsed on the eastern flank of the spirit army.

With each flash of her eyes, hundreds of spirits were destroyed, until all of them were gone and only Mahishasura and his elite forces were left.

The ground shook uncontrollably, and thunder tore the air. Then a giant wave curved over the southern mountain range. Everyone stared up in horror at it, except for Durga, who regarded it as calmly as any other elements she had called.

Some of the demons tried to run away, but it was too late. The wave crashed down on what remained of the spirit army. Now only Mahishasura remained.

Durga?s eyes glowed brighter than they had ever done before as she gathered all of her energy.

?With your death,? she called down to him in her booming voice, ?my people will live.?

And with all of her strength, she slammed into him with all the power of the four elements. An inhuman scream echoed over the field. The demon?s head, now on fire, rolled over the grass until it stopped beneath Durga.

And so it was over. The enemy was defeated. The battle was won. The humans were free.

Durga sank to the ground, releasing the winds to the four directions. She looked up at the four great leaders with her bright white eyes. ?I must return your power,? she said, holding out her hands, palms up.

They stepped back in refusal.

?You may keep our power,? Fire Lord Shiva told her.

?But I have no need of it,? she protested.

Water Chief Varuna glanced at his peers. ?But we have need of it,? he said. The others nodded in agreement.

?I don?t understand,? she said.

?Mahishasura is not the last enemy we will face,? explained Air Master Vishnu. ?This is not the last time that we will need to call on you for aid. We would like you to keep these powers, to use when the time comes, when we need your help.?

Durga examined this proposal. For the first time, she smiled.

?It would be easier for me if I were to be close by, so that I can stop threats before they get so out of control,? she said, with a casual wave of the battlefield. ?So I will live as a human, in this world.?

?But you possess too much power for one human,? said Earth King Brahma. When she turned her gaze on him, he faltered. ?Even one such as you,? he added.

?Then I will only be allowed to access this power when I need it,? she replied. And just like that, the glow faded from her eyes, until they looked exactly like every other human?s.

?But if you are human,? Water Chief Varuna said, ?you will die. And then what will we do when we need your help??

?Yes, I will die,? Durga agreed. ?But I will return. I will be reborn as an avatar, again and again, as long as you have need of me.?

The great leaders nodded. It was agreed.

Fire Lord Shiva offered his hand to Durga. ?Allow me to introduce you to your people, Avatar Durga,? he said. She took his hand, and he led her to the peoples of the four nations.

[Griffin]

This sounds really good, however, how close is it to the original hindu story?

[malynwater]

I suppose I can answer that :)

Pretty darn close.

In the original Hindu myth (meaning the version I based my myth on), the gods (for lack of a better term) were fighting a demon, and were so outraged by his carnage, they created Durga (as in my version). The demon - similar to the head Ringwraith in Lord of the Rings - could not be killed by a man; luckily, Durga was a woman. The gods gave her all of their powers (represented in art by her many arms holding symbols of the other gods, like a shell or a spear), and she defeated the demon and cut off his head.

My Avatarized version follows the "original" Hindu myth very closely. I added in words like "Avatar" and "Fire Lord." The only fundamental difference is the ending. In the original, Durga gives the powers back to the gods. In my version, Durga keeps their powers and becomes the first Avatar.

Of course, there are other versions of the Hindu myth, but I think the general ideas are the same.

and lol to sukkah for trying to use fanfiction as canon! That is a noble goal indeed! ;)

[Hannuq Amaruq]

Waow Very nice story ZTAD. I enjoyed reading it! (post it as a one shot in the library? :D)

Karma for it!

[malynwater]

aw, thanks kip! I think it's somewhere in the library actually, because I think all the entries to the RenFair were posted in a group.

[sukkah]

head Ringwraith in Lord of the Rings

woot!

[Griffin]

Well, I think this is probably the actual idea from the creators, since the whole show is based on eastern mythology.

[zuko614]

it probably is.

[Veggie]

We hear the narration 'water, earth, fire, air...' but where did it begin? How do you start a cycle?

In Book I, Yue spoke of the water tribes mimicking the push and pull of the tides the moon took on the ocean waters. Is that where bending began, the water tribes? Hard to say, really because 'Cave of Two Lovers' explains the beginnings of earth bending: watching the mole badgers, but we do not have a comparison timeline for earthbending and waterbending.

Both the sun and moon have dramatic affects on the earth, namely the dirunal cycle. So the earth was at least here first, along with the air, and water came, then there was light...

So where does bending begin? At where we assume the cycle starts? Life begins with water?

I think The avatar (Chicken, in this case) came first and helped teach the for elements along with the original benders (The Badger Moles, The moon, The Sun (or dragons?) and The flying Bisons.)

[zuko614]

i think the avatar came after the elements were bended.

[hajtom]

Anyway as many of you might know I basically feel unmotivated to read long posts of something I have no idea, unless if its something I am interested in, on what to expect like fanfics hehehe sorry guys. But since Mr. Sukkah posted it here then I had to read it cuz I like this speculation on the roots of things like thingy.

And I say pretty good work Ztad! I like it! Hail you! and Hail Hindu mythology! Which I am inclined to believe with out any basis that it is older than Greek Mythology.

[Veggie]

i think the avatar came after the elements were bended.

It's a possibility. I do think that the avatar came along first though, because he is the ultimate bender so possibly the first bender? Maybe there was a race of avatars (say, like the fire nation) but we wiped out and then left with just one who could recarnate (sp) himself with the help from the spirits. That's my theory but it's kinda wack ^_^

[zuko614]

possibly. sadly we will never know for sure.

[neraru]

I kind of have a theory, but not much evidence to back it off?
Well, we all know the story of Oma and Shu. I think maybe Oma and Shu where the first Benders of any type. I mean, they were in love and probably desperate to be together somehow. So they studied badgermoles. Then, when Shu died in the war, Oma unleashed her Earthbending. Maybe, then, people wanted to know how come Oma could do what she did, and so some more Earthbenders learned. Then, The Fire Nation ? not to be outdone ? discovered Firebending. Maybe as a defence ? or to help with fishing or something ? they found out how to Waterbend by studying the moon?s effect on the tides. The new power of Bending might have filled them with confidence, and there could have been the threat of war. The Spirits sensed danger, and sent the Avatar along, born to the Air Temple. I do have some kind of proof to back this up: in the Southern Air Temple, Katara said that the Avatar cycle was ?Air, Water, Earth, Fire? when they found the statues of the past Avatars, though I?m still not one hundred per cent sure (because she narrates it ?Water, Earth, Fire, Air? and she didn?t directly say the Avatar Cycle was ?Air, Water, Earth, Fire?). The Avatar was curious, and discovered he could Bend Water, Earth and Fire, which nobody else could. He also discovered a new talent ? Airbending. The Avatar taught the curious in the Air Temple. More and more people learned how to Bend, and it became more frequently used, and so we have the Avatar universe we know today.
Well, it?s a thought. I mean, love would have been the motive for Oma and Shu learning, and curiosity/defence/convenience would have been a motive for people of the other nation to try it, too. What does everyone think?

[earthyuesokka10]

I suppose it started at water-bending, because learning the push and pull of the tides sounds a lot more ancient than learning from badger moles, etc. :P

from yr friendly cactus-freak, Cactus.

[voldemort]

Recourbement cr?? par Voldemort.

[aikidude]

English, please...

I think that bending sort of evolved from other spiritual rituals and such. It is a shame we do not have the details on Avatar History, but let's just say that the first benders were also spiritual leaders, like sages or shamans. Those benders had a hierarchy, with at the top the Avatar. The Avatar was the bender that mastered all four disciples, AND had such a powerful connection to the spirits, that he could prevent others from accomplishing the same feat. He took on the job to maintain order and balance in the hierarchy, in the world, and made sure there were no wars and such. Eventually, he realised that he, still being mortal, would one day die, like anyone else. So (again the powerful connection crap) he decided that he would reincarnate in the next born bender following a logical cycle (the seasons).

Assuming the above is true (it might be, but probably isn't), the question becomes: what was the first avatar's native element?

[Griffin]

Perhaps the first avatar wasn't born from any benders, just from regual people who didn't have any bending blood whatsoever.

[avatarknife]

i think the avatar should have born from two benders, each one of them with 2 bending elements.

However its like asking, where did the universe come from... God? Big bang? any of those theories? who knows... but we have faith, or some believe in free will, what matters really is that we all have the same destiny, death. Maby Avatar beginning can't even be calculated.

[StashinGremlins]

@_@ I'm reading all the posts and its getting so confusing, but, personally I'm just happy with 'it just happened'.