Dark Bending Forms

[Pleh]

I apologize for posting before thoroughly researching my premises.

You're right about Everest. Excuse my haste in the matter.
I wanted to show that "the bends" could be achieved in air just as it could be in water.
A better example perhaps would have been to say that it's not a good idea to fly on a plane right after diving.

But I researched surfacing quickly while underwater.
It's not the buildup of Nitrogen that kills people upon resurfacing.
Normally your blood barely absorbs any nitrogen, but large amounts of water pressure can cause your blood to absorb a lot more nitrogen than it normally would.
Resurfacing slowly allows the nitrogen to "off gas" (mostly through your lungs).
Resurfacing too quickly can cause the nitrogen to expand or even bubble (sometimes referred to as boiling since it's causing your liquid blood to bubble).
So I was right in my idea, though I said what I meant poorly.

Here's my source for it.
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080520002545AAXQNm8

As for fast depressurization... okay, so more parts of the body would react violently at the change in pressure than I talked about.
It's the difference in pressure that causes the expansion you talked about.
So I'm right, but again I simply didn't have all the pieces.
My argument's the same, though.

Forge was the one who brought up the idea that an airbender-conjured vacuum would make a person explode.
I was trying to point out that such a thing would not likely happen.
Much more likely a person would suffocate before the airbender could depressurize an area sufficiently to make a person explode.

[sparticus]

I like funny jokes, yours was on the carrot top side of lame.

So the pre-pubescent shipping debates and the one dimensional 'whos stronger' debates are the only acceptable points of discussion? Hardly.

I like science, I like physics, I like hypothetical scenarios. So, I'm going to take something I like, Avatar, and discuss it within the realms of the other stuff I like. If you don't like it, don't post and don't read, I won't mind. But don't trivialize what I like simply because its not what you like. I'll delve as deeply as I want into the science of Avatar. I'll discuss the actual quantum scale changes of bending on things/people. I'll get too serious and too specific and too theoretical. And I'll like it. If people don't like it, they'll stop responding to my posts and I'll have to change. But until that happens, don't think you get to tell me what to do.

And I was correcting, you'll know when I'm belittling. It involves scorn, sarcasm, and the picking apart of every part of their argument.

The ultimate effects of your arguments were, and are, correct, but the specifics use to justify it were the problem.

I agree that an airbender probably wouldn't be able to create a vacuum powerful enough and fast enough to be a useable weapon in battle.

[forge]

I like funny jokes, yours was on the carrot top side of lame.

Carrot-Top side of lame? Heh.

Never mind. I don't think you got my "joke" either.

So the pre-pubescent shipping debates and the one dimensional 'whos stronger' debates are the only acceptable points of discussion? Hardly.

Did I say those were the only topics worth debating? Hardly. There are many.

But wondering if the second law of thermodynamics applies to firebending is going a bit too far. It's like trying to scientifically explain Evangelion. There's too many esoteric factors to ahve a meaningful debate.

I like science, I like physics, I like hypothetical scenarios. So, I'm going to take something I like, Avatar, and discuss it within the realms of the other stuff I like.

Oh, I am a big science-fiction fan. I actually have a story where people from 36th-century earth (from another universe) pop into the Avatar world.

But I'm exploring science where it needs explaining, like the making of a sword or the maintainence of a springhouse. I'm not going to explore how one can firebend while in the presence of the law of conservation of energy.

But until that happens, don't think you get to tell me what to do.

Oh, perish the thought. I wouldn't dream of telling you what to do. I'll just keep scratching my head.

And I was correcting, you'll know when I'm belittling. It involves scorn, sarcasm, and the picking apart of every part of their argument.

Even more sarcastic than before? I shudder at the thought.

The ultimate effects of your arguments were, and are, correct, but the specifics use to justify it were the problem.

Hmm?

[Pleh]

He was speaking to me when he made those last few comments, Forge.

I love Physics, too. In fact, I'm majoring in it.
I just haven't gotten very far yet. Still in the fundamental Physics classes.
But I still love coming on here and applying what I'm learning.

That's pretty much why I write "truncated science essays", as Forge said.
I'm not trying to impress anybody.
This is the way my mind thinks all the time mixed with my attempts to communicate such thoughts to people who don't think that way.
It comes out looking like a science essay.

[sparticus]

I find great meaning and pleasure in debating the possible interpretations of the laws of entropy as they can be applied and determined in Avatar. Its fun to me, and that makes it a meaningful debate.

Feel free to explore the science of Avatar where it suits you, I'll explore where I want too. And Sci-fi doesn't translate into science and physics. One is a medium designed to related fictional characters and their lives/situations combined with the dynamic changes a level of technological sophistication adds to the party (and many of the lesser sc-fi novelist I define more as sci-fi fantasy as they don't spend all that much time actually determining if their technology base is rational/plausible/believable). The other is textbook definitions and problems to be solved. They are radically different types of subjects.

Scratch away, but don't bother posting when you have nothing to offer the debate, it leads to problems like these.

The last parts of my previous post were to pleh. I often switch gears to whom I'm addressing without making the transition clear. I'll try and work on that.

[Renori Fa]

I find great meaning and pleasure in debating the possible interpretations of the laws of entropy as they can be applied and determined in Avatar.

Wait, what?

[sparticus]

I find great meaning and pleasure in debating the possible interpretations of the laws of entropy as they can be applied and determined in Avatar.

Wait, what?

Does it matter?

[Renori Fa]

lol, I guess not. I never really understand what he is saying....

usually the posts are too long and I never read long posts

[sokkaguy101]

I dont want to start anything but your should pay attention, Pleh always makes very good and precise posts. I may not agree with them all the time but its nice to see someone putting that much effort and time into each post

:)

[leto]

Or as well as firebenders lightning bend DARKness bending

and orb bending

and meteorite bending from space

[Pleh]

Meteorite bending is highly improbable. Yes, we know from Sokka's sword and Toph that Earthbenders can bend rocks outside of earth, but meteorites are very small and very far away.
I don't think any earthbenders would ever be able to see them or bend them at such a great distance.
I mean, sure if they see it burning up in the atmosphere and decide to pull it down, but most meteorites aren't big enough to survive the fall anyway.
That, and they're moving with pretty incredible speed. They'd be hard to control.
Good idea, though I think it's a bit impractical.

As for orb bending, what kind of orbs are you talking about?
An orb is more of a shape than a material. In fact, you could probably make an orb from ice just as easily as from glass or crystal.
So what kind of bender would bend an orb and what use would it have?

As for bending darkness... that sounds like lightbending.
I don't think anyone can really bend darkness itself. Darkness is just an absence of light.
If you could bend the light so that it never reached a person's eyes, you would blind them.
But lightbending has been a topic of debate on this forum for some time.
Can firebenders bend light without creating a torch?
I tend to think that they can, though several arguments can be made both ways.

[sparticus]

There is another topic about comet bending, so I'll leave that be. And I'm with pleh on the orb, what would orb bending bend?

Lightning bending is not light bending, the two things are pretty different. Lightning is an electrical discharge, light is the visible portion of the electromagnetic spectrum, and is most easily described as consisting of charged photons. It can be argued that lightning/electricity is similar, but the extreme concentration of lightning makes it a different bending idea.

If you could bend the actual photons that make up light, then you would basically be able to control everyone. You could change yours and others appearance at will, could make people see solid ground when they are actually walking off a cliff. You could prevent war by making enemies invisible to the other soldiers. It'd be pretty cool, but also a bending form easy to abuse.

I don't think that firebenders bend light at all, I think they bend a combination of energy and oxidation (think combustion, not rust). Simply because fire gives off light photons doesn't mean that they are able to bend those particles.

[Pleh]

From what I can see, I suspect that Firebenders bend mostly energy.
Light is a form of energy, so I suspect they can bend it to a degree.
However, creating total illusions are likely beyond their capabilities.
I think they could alter light's course or maybe stop it entirely the same way they put out fire.
So I think they could hide something by bending the light around it or blind a person by preventing the light from reaching their eyes.
But I don't think they could make any complex images.

[devaki]

i dont believe that earthbenders could bend bones, but as a dark bending for earthbenders might have been about metalbending.As we've seen on Toph, Bending iron is possible for earthbenders , so they might pull all irons off from human body , so the person cant use oxygen and drown because of it.

[Pleh]

I don't think there is enough iron in a person to bend it like you're thinking.
Remember that Toph doesn't bend what we think of as elements. She bends "earth".
In order to be able to bend anything, she has to see it as earth.
The biggest problem is that Avatarverse doesn't know that have have or even need iron in our bodies because there is so very little of it in us.
Their knowledge of iron is probably limited to their ability to forge it.

Bones are mostly made of calcium, aren't they? It's another metal, but, again, they need to have direct relation with the earth that Benders normally bend.
Fossilized bones would be optimum, since those bones have turned into stone in a sense.

[sozinho]

Here's my take. The "Dark" form of a bending discipline is the form where the true nature of the element has been perverted. So, for instance, Waterbending. Water's nature is to adapt. The Water Tribes are famous for their love of family and community. And waterbending is graceful, gently redirecting the opponent's energy and can be used for healing. Bloodbending, on the other hand, runs counter to this harmoniousness.

Firebending, as practiced by the majority of the Fire Nation, based on anger and hate, was revealed to be a perverted form; in other words, the version based on personal will and motivation as still practiced by the Sun Warriors and those that have learned from them is the non-Dark form. Everything else is the Dark form. Azula's extremely f'd-up-emotion-powered version may further be an extremely Dark version.

Hey, here's a thought: Blackfire. If, through effort, you can produce a higher-temperature fire that produces a blue-white flame as Azula does, couldn't one also produce a slightly lower-temperature flame that wouldn't produce any light at all? It would be great for assassinations; a nice match for Zuko's sneaky-ninja bit he does.

Earthbending is based on strong stances, and direct attack and defense. I would say the version of earthbending most contrary to that spirit is the Dai Li style: sneaking around, keeping quiet, disabling attacks like that stone-handcuff thing. And Azula herself said their "killer instinct" is more Firebender than Earthbender.

Now, I don't know much about airbenders, but as I recall, one of the "card characters," Afiko the Betrayer, had some kind of attack which seems like some form of breathbending. If airstrangling isn't the Dark form of the most non-aggressive bending discipline, I don't know what is.

[Avatar Thor]

I think fire bending could be most deadly.

[Renori Fa]

Wow Sozinho, that point about blackfire was really original, karma.

[Tiny]

Waterbenders could probably freeze liquids in somebody's body. If frozen correctly, their own blood would peirce a major artery or stop their heart. A Waterbender, because they have so much control over someone, could probably do anything. A particularly dark form would be slowly freezing somebody to the point of death.

Firebenders obviously have lightning. But they could also slow-roast somebody, and possibly (they've been shown to be able to heat outside objects up) give someone a high enough temperature so that they die.

Airbenders could probably make someone burst their lungs, or deprive them of oxygen. They could also cut off the oxygen supply to a person's brain

Earthbenders could do a Gaara-style Sand Coffin/Sand Burial move, and slowly engulf someone in soil, either putting pressure on the soil and killing them, or burying them alive. Earthbenders could also use a grain of sand, and put it in someone's body, and move it inside their body. Imagine the pain one would be in, even from a little bit of earth moving in their stomachs.


... I never knew I was this sadistic...

[Count of Monte Fisto]

Dark forms of bending would be easy to think of. It seems to be that benders master discipline (because it is on Nick), but also not to misuse their power.

Waterbenders can do everything you have mentioned. Bloodbending seems in and of itself a twisted way to using bending. It is really the most brutal method. A blood bender can make friends and family fight each other. These people can see and know everything they do, but they cannot stop it. It is quite horrifying.

Waterbenders can drown people. All you need to trap some water around someone's head and they will not be able to breathe.

Firebending is the most obviously bending that can be lethal. Everything you mentioned is true, but there is more that can be done also. Combustion Man used firebending to create explosions. You would figure that with firebending you could be powerful enough to be a Roy Mustang. Firebending is the bending of energy, life. This wasn't explored literally, but if it can be explored literally, then the implications are pretty terrifying.

Earthbending is obviously deadly. It doesn't take much force to the head to kill someone. Earth can also be manipulated during earthbending. You can basically throw swords and blades at people with earthbending, not that crushing every internal organ isn't an absolute way to kill someone. A metalbender might be able to pull a Magneto on someone and pull the metal from inside a person's body. Using grains of earth and throwing them fast, isn't that similar to a gun. Metalbending along with firebending would be Avatar's path into the Industrial Revolution. If you don't want to bend a gun, you can just metalbend until you have your own gun. Those benders can be responsible for the deaths of thousands without doing it themselves. I think that is a very perverted sense of bending.

Airbending it interesting. I just have to wonder if Waterbending is the only bending that transcends its present form. Waterbenders can bend ice. I have to wonder if airbenders can ultra heat or cool down air. 1000C air and -372C air can have horribly destructive impact consequences on the body at immediate impact. Though nothing has happened on the show that indicates that any bending besides waterbending, and maybe firebending can change the temperature of whatever they are bending. As for other things, it would be mostly the same as what was mentioned above. Vacuuming a room of air maybe a way of killing someone without them even realizing it. An airbender assassin would have an invisible arsenal of moves that are potentially lethal and non compromising. I do think of airbending as the least deadly, but all of then can be pretty terrible.

[nutshak]

Ayyyyyyyyyyy!!!!!!!!!!!!BD

Well, for airbenders...

They could blow the air around somones head causing them to have a really bad hair day!

Or throw them into space.

[sparticus]

if airbenders can ultra heat or cool down air. 1000C air and -372C air can have horribly destructive impact consequences on the body at immediate impact

Thats an interesting point that I had never considered before. I know it would be hard to animate, so that could be a reason they don't show us something like it, but it seems like it could be a possibility. Though I have always considered earth and air to be more similar forms of bending, just like fire and water. Water can obviously change temperatures, and Azula shows us you can squeeze out hotter flames, but I'm not sure we've seen equivalents in air/earth. Water and fire are both relatively straight forward elements, but air and earth are both combinations of other things taken as a group. So, while water and fire are based on manipulating a single thing to their will, air and earth actually have to bend a dozen or so elements all at once to work it. I guess I would need to either see an airbender do it, or see an earthbender superheat a boulder by himself to really think it could be done.

But if it is possible, then that opens up a whole new realm for dark bending.

You could burn someone's lungs from the inside, or have their bones cook them from the inside out.

[Count of Monte Fisto]

That is true. We never see earth do it. I do think that we had a conversation about something like this with pleh to when he talked about lavabending.

You bring a good point about bending parallels. I feel like I go back to cloud bending all the time for this one. Would be be Katara that keeps the elements of water as air, and Aang that actually moves the air? I just wonder what kind of control Aang really has over that.

If you could, that would be pretty terrifying. My guess is that if you could do it with airbending, that you could theoretically do it with all bending, but then that would make firebending kind of suck though.

Do we ever see Katara boil water? I don't remember. If so, she could kill people on the full moon very easily. She would literally have the ability to make blood boil.

[feenixx]

Air: one could go for the blood-bending parallel and make the case that the entire purpose of the blood is to carry oxygen, thus the airbender could do a low-level of blood bending. Much stronger however would be lung/throat bending, where the airbender could asphyxiate someone simply by drawing all the air out of their system.

Earth: since Toph invented metal bending (although she seems to need to be in contact with the metal when she bends it) she could use bone bending (iron, calcium, other metals stored in the bones/marrow). Now this is a stretch, but go with me: skin bending. Dust is just dead skin particles, and she had no trouble dust bending in the past. Could one possibly bend the outer layers of skin? food for thought....

Water: blood bending. its pretty clutch. pretty unethical, but pretty clutch. nothing to say there.

Fire: since the firebenders are the only ones who can summon their element (shoot fire from their hands, while others simply manipulate the elements. you don't see toph creating earth) you could say that they are 'heat' bender that manifests as fire (or lightning) thus they could cause your internal body temperature to rise, giving you a fatal fever, or even causing spontaneous combustion.



discuss.

[feenixx]

ALSO: lava bending would be possible ONLY for an earthbender, since it is molten rock. still rock, mind you, just really really hot rock. still rock, still earthbendable.